JH: Hey what’s up? It’s Jon from Dead to Fall.

MI: Hey what’s going on?

JH: Not much. Just woke up at 12.30. I’m a bum. I’m nocturnal though for the most part. I go to bed at 5am. We have practice in like an hour.

MI: What do u do, sir, ‘til such ungodly hours?

JH: Stay up late with the kids I’m staying with, they work nights so when they are off work we stay up hella late. Usually go out for a while, come home, look at girls on Myspace and watch videos on MTV.

MI: Alright, first of all, please describe your music to those who don’t know you.

JH: Mmmmm…that’s always tough for me a little but I would describe it as a hybrid of Swedish death metal, American metal, and hardcore I guess.

MI: Whom do you mainly listen to?

JH: I go in phases like most people I think

MI: What are your three top bands right now? Or three top of all time, or whatever you wanna say, not limited to three.

JH: Oh, I can’t do of all time. That would take me a week to figure out. But right now it’s Nile- “Annihilation of the Wicked,� Darkane – “Layers of Lies� (just saw them for the first time) and the Warriors – “War is Hell.�

MI: OK…what I mainly wanted to talk to you about was the whole concept of Villainy and Virtue. Did you ever hear of Orphaned Land?

JH: Nope.

MI: www.orphaned-land.com, check it…they have a song called “The Evil Urgeâ€?, it’s something in Judaism, basically that a person is born with a little angel and a little devil on the shoulder. Orphaned Land in this song states that the whole job is to strike a balance between the two (I don’t agree). Actually, before I get into my issue, could you just explain the whole thing of villainy and virtue as you see it?

JH: Well, when I was writing for the record I noticed that each song touched on the subject of villainy and virtue. Like some songs were more positive, some a little more negative. Each was a little piece of that inner struggle between good and evil.

MI: Can you give me a concrete example in one of your songs?

JH: Well, the opening track was about understanding your choices and where they come from. Knowing your mind, and letting it control your body. Understanding your choices, why you make them..etc. If you don’t know your own mind you make choices on instinct and gut reactions and in my mind that is not a smart way to live.

MI: Agreed. What’s the name of the track?

JH: Torn Self (Ready Set Circle Pit). It’s a little more positive. The title track is mainly about the religious right who are so concerned with everyone else, and with promoting what they think is the truth, that they themselves fall into what they preach against. So what they think is virtue turns out to be a deceiving form of villainy. I guess I see life has having necessary evils within ourselves. You have to know where they come from, and be able to control them. But they are necessary. So I would agree with what you said before about there being a balance.

MI: That’s so funny.

JH: What’s funny?

MI: I was taught that you have to uplift every type of emotion, no matter what (except anger and pride) and that they’re necessary evils, so to speak, but if you use them for the right it’s good.

JH: By whose opinion of right though? Because that’s all relative.

MI: Right. But who are you? Meaning what do you stand for, what do you believe in. Nobody can claim to be purely objective.

JH: No, but you can claim to be objective for yourself. By your own standards you decide what is right and what is wrong in each situation. Sometimes what is right by your mind and your ethics, everyone around you would call wrong. So what at that point is right and wrong?

MI: So I’m basically an Orthodox Jew. If I wasn’t religious there would be a lot of people I would murder just cause it would feel good. So my fight with people that don’t believe in G-d is: Who makes the ethics then?

JH: Culture.

MI: What culture? Homeboy ghetto culture that makes killing the coolest of the cool? There’s too many cultures to say culture.

JH: The culture that surrounds us tell us what is right and wrong, I don’t believe that we are born with a set of rules. It’s the people that surround them that decide what the rules are. I don’t know what that last comment meant.

MI: If you’re talking about being objective and you say culture makes the rules…here is an example. There are too many cultures that completely oppose each other, such as Western culture and Islam. To say culture, it’s too broad.

JH: Cannibal tribes in the bush don’t know that by Western religious standards the lives they live are wrong. I think that proves my point. Two different cultures that have two different sets of right and wrong.

MI: Right, but what I’m saying is, if that’s the case, then there has to be a code of ethics over that.

JH: Each culture has a code of ethics for sure.

MI: Each culture but they conflict.

JH: Most of the time it comes in the form of a god, because people are more willing to accept the laws of a higher power then the laws of their fellow man.

MI: For sure, why worship someone whose ways are intelligible to man? (Rav Kahane said that).

JH: There aren’t very many places that have gone untouched by Western (Christian) culture. As in missionaries who went out and preached that whatever those tribes were doing was wrong because it was wrong to Western culture. That’s what the missionaries in South America and Australia do.

MI: So you’re saying Western culture (a mix of monotheism and Greek philosophy) is the standard of the world?

JH: According to Western culture it is. That’s what the Crusades were.

MI: And are (what’s going on now is the same thing). There are a lot more Moslems though.

JH: And yes I think that the “war on terror” is the same thing. I only know the American perspective.

MI: I live in the Middle East so I get both. I think there has to be some sort of objective reality.

JH: This is not my opinion but the opinion of the masses, that we don’t understand the mindset of Muslims so therefore they must be wrong.

MI: Aaaaah, I can answer you but I can’t be objective about it. I mean, if I was a Moslem I would have totally danced when the World Trade Center fell, but because I’m an American-born Jew, I’m subjective. I can see why someone would have been a Nazi. Not saying because Jews are bad or something.

JH: I can as well, because going against the masses is hard. I am German-born. My whole family is German, and it’s a sore subject for most Germans and will be forever I think. Or another 250 years ‘til its just history.

MI: It can’t be.

JH: Well at this point it’s history, but not history that should be forgotten. And I think it’s good it’s still a sore subject so that we can’t let it happen again, although it happens.

MI: It’s not history for me. I live it every day. All my family was in the camps, and I know all the stories. It’s like, my sweet grandma who is the light of my life got her whole family gassed and cremated.

JH: Genocide in Africa is still happening but its not in oil rich countries so the rest of the world could care less. OK, back to our first topic of culture…

MI: I’m not throwing it on you, but you should know, like people are still really damaged.

JH: Oh, I know they are. I went to Dachau this winter when we went on a European tour. I wanted to go. I needed to be reminded that this shit really happened. From the moment I was born I learned about it. Because it is a big deal. I meant it’s a sore subject to Germans because we are embarrassed. Severely embarrassed.

MI: The thing is, some people say it’s because of the German culture, ‘cause there are a lot of things that Nazism appealed to. Lack of pride in losing the war (wound licking), Germans and failure don’t mix well. Bad economy.

JH: Yeah, and it was a gradual thing over a period of years. It wasn’t from nothing to genocide.

MI: But honestly, look, I’m glad many Germans (not all, mind you, whatsoever) are embarrassed. It doesn’t bring people back. But the thing is, I really think it could happen in America.

JH: I’m just being objective when I say Hitler was a good leader.

MI: Sure he was, he appealed to the most basic wants of humanity.

JH: Exactly. He was a swindler as well.

MI: Which is my point- it can totally happen anywhere.

JH: I agree. And a lot of Americans are scared of that as well.

MI: Part of the reason I left.

JH: W. has a lot of people caught up in this pro-America bullshit. So much so they dont notice things like Haliburton (Cheney, the Vice President’s old company) got a contract to help rebuild New Orleans without having to bid on it for something like $8 billion.

MI: Aaah it’s different I think- there’s a difference in being proud of your country and wanting to destroy an entire race.

JH: But it starts somewhere.

MI: Wow.

JH: It’s not on the news. No one cares. But it changes quickly.

MI: How did you know about it?

JH: A lot of my friends are in the unions here in the States, and are throwing a fit about it. It violates all kinds of labor laws, giving someone a no-bid contract. But OK, back to my pro-country stuff. I went to a lot of the pro-war protests just to hear people out and kind of get a feel for things. I was living in an average middle America town, about two hours from Chicago. So it’s not a suburb, just a country town where I was going to college. And it was right when the Iraq thing was starting. I heard people say ignorant mindless things like “Who gives a fuck, bomb them sand niggers.” “Fuck that Islam garbage, they only understand violence.”

MI: I dunno, I have a different take on it. I mean, I hear ya. But my best friend is from Iraq.

JH: OK I’m not saying that Saddam was good, he was a horrible dictator.

MI: Her gramma opened a photo album. She said, this one got hung from a fan, this one got shoved into a refrigerator, this one was killed this way, that way. Cause they were Jewish. I can’t be objective.

JH: But America must have learned nothing from Vietnam.

MI: What do you mean, what does Vietnam have to do with it?

JH: Another country where we went in like gangbusters and tried to help solve the world’s problems and had to fight guerrilla warfare. Yeah, the first war was won. But how do we keep fighting insurgents or whatever?

MI: Wait a sec. I understand why someone doesn’t want to have war. But remember I live in Jerusalem. The only time it’s quiet and we’re not getting blown up on busses and in pizzerias is when we go in there and kill the people doing it. When we’re nice and we give them it’s taken as weakness.

JH: And I’m sorry for that. Like I’m sorry that that’s how it is out there.

MI: It’s not as bad as they make it on the news, but I’m talking about attacks all over the country. Not your fault. But yeh, watch out that you’re not being subjective to your own morals. Your own morals, back to the culture, may be completely different morals.

JH: OK, but this is what I’m saying is my friends are over there fighting and getting blown up as well. And I don’t live in Iraq. And I’m not getting attacked. And I hope it doesn’t turn into Vietnam where we just got the shit kicked out of us, and many Americans died, and in the end, for nothing.

MI: Yeh, it’s a nightmare. But it’s like if they don’t take care of it there (and it’s debatable, whether or not that’s taking care of it but I don’t know enough about it to stand my own)-

JH: Yeah, it had nothing to do with Iraq –

MI: Where will they be taking care of it? But the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, they want you gone, bro.

JH: Because we want them gone.

MI: You say it has nothing to do with Iraq but I don’t believe that.

JH: There were no WMD’s and no one has held Bush accountable for lying to America. He told us that he had cold hard evidence that there was WMDs in Iraq and there weren’t. So now we are stuck in a conflict that a lot of Americans are not sure we can win. But back to the culture thing…

MI: OK. My stance is: cultures contradict one another, so to say, that culture makes the laws of true ethics can’t be true, cause each independent culture clashing leads to war. There has to be something over it, which leads to me believing in G-d, cause that idea supercedes plain old cultures.

JH: Right, but which god gets to be in control?

MI: There’s just one, and I’d bleed on that.

JH: But if you ask an Islamic person that what would they say?

MI: Might be many interpretations, but it’s the same One – Jews and Arabs believe in the same One.

JH: Yeah like by Ba’hai.

MI: A Jew doesn’t believe the Torah will ever be added to and that there were no more prophets after a certain time so Ba’hai gets shot down by me. Their gardens are out here in Haifa.

JH: Well, I was saying as far as saying that all religions are the same god, but by you…so by your culture/set of rules…

MI: Yeh, but I believe one of the worst concepts ever foisted upon mankind was the worship of objectivity uber alles which is a Western thing.

JH: Here are my beliefs. Ready?

MI: Go for it.

JH: Everyone is entitled to believe what they want. But no one should have the right to tell someone that their beliefs are wrong. Some people need religion and I respect that. I’m not going to tell them they are wrong. But the minute they tell me that I am wrong for what I believe is where I say something. The same: I’m vegan but I don’t preach it to everyone who eats meat. But when they tell me that I should eat meat and call me a “faggot” for not doing so is when I say something.

MI: That’s respectable… depends if it’s damaging you, or your circles or whatever.

JH: No, it’s more about that if someone wants to bring up the debate I’m willing to say something, but I’m not going out of my way to make drama.

MI: So this is what I wanted to argue with you about.

JH: Haha ok. Go for it.

MI: A virtuous man dreams what a wicked man does. Lemme ask, according to this, you believe all men are virtuous or wicked, it’s the same thing? Because of what’s going on in their hearts/minds?

JH: Mmm. I don’t think that men are one or the other. I think everyone has the capability for either. No one is inherently one or the other.

MI: So what do you think makes one virtuous or one wicked?

JH: The things that happen in our lives.

MI: That’s it?

JH: Our culture. And opportunity.

MI: So this is where i argue that you left out the most intrinsic element. CHOICE.

JH: Yeah, you have the choice to act on all those things.

MI: It’s about deed. If two men want to kill and one chooses not to he’s virtuous because his mind was over his heart and he controlled himself. (btw, it’s said that G-d created the man with his head over his heart, not like an animal, to show he has free choice and doesn’t have top be ruled by his instincts).

JH: What are the circumstances where two men had the opportunity to kill? Just for fun?

MI: Say each one could gain a million dollars for it. Could get out of it, so not be held to law or what people would say. No one would know. When someone goes against his personal desires for a greater good such as “I think it’s wrong to kill someone even for a million dollars.â€? And a million dollars is a primary goal in the society we were raised in.

JH: Well, I’m vegan so I would have to agree. I think its wrong to kill animals. However, a human has something an animal does not, the ability to decide to die.

MI: Or to live, or to let others be more important, when with animals it’s always kill or be killed.

JH: So if a human were to tell me they wanted to die so that I could eat them, that is something an animal cannot decide. It would be rather hypocritical for me to say that murder is ok when I think killing animals is wrong.

MI: Well, yes and no, cause you feel that animals are helpless against humans cause they’re small fuzzy bunnies but put your ass up against a lion and give you a gun I guarantee you won’t feel too much guilt.

JH: No, I feel that in this day and age I don’t need to eat meat anymore. The lion is life or death. My diet is not life or death. I haven’t eaten meat in ten years and I’m still alive. There is no need for me to cause the suffering of another living creature, but that is me. I am not willing to say that it works for everyone. Everyone has a choice and it’s up to them, not me. That’s my problem with religion. If someone believes differently they are wrong. There is no room for diversity of beliefs.

MI: Well, depends which, there can be diversity within a structure but yeh, some principles go untouched. Like, you can say you don’t want to believe in gravity but if you jump off a building you’re still gonna splatter.

JH: Unless you are on the moon where gravity doesn’t exist.

MI: This was the big fight of the Nazis with the Jews. Nazis wanted to be the human animals, all the power to be theirs, kill or be killed and use all of the talents given to them, divine talents, cause animals don’t have freedom of abstract expression or morality or all that, to further their own like, superman/animal bit. The Jews inflicted circumcision on the body and morality on the soul. That was the whole war, even leading Hitler to keep his efforts on killing Jews when he was losing in Russia.

JH: OK what are we talking about here, veganism, culture or WWII? One at time please.

MI: Sorry. It’s all part of the same. Objectivity vs. subjectivity. You’re talking about how you don’t want to preach to someone to be vegan and that you don’t think it’s fair that religion gives you principles that don’t allow for someone else to believe something else.

JH: Right…I just don’t feel right telling someone that their beliefs are wrong.

MI: Because you’re a prime product of liberal Western college educated culture, forgive me if I’m being presumptuous.

JH: No. Because I was Christian for 20 years. And I know me preaching to someone does nothing. I used to try and turn my friends on to the “truth”. And it never worked because unless someone has an interest to change then they aren’t going to. Someone has to have the desire to change. Same, preaching to people about their diet has no effect. However me living my life as an example of what I believe in could interest someone to ask why I’m vegan/straightedge and then I could have a civilized conversation with them about it.

MI: So why are you?

JH: Why am I what, vegan or edge?

MI: Both.

JH: Well, OK, veganism is a choice I made for my own health, and for the rights of animals and activism. That’s the short response. Edge is another form of activism I think. I live in a culture where alcoholism is rampant and by not drinking I put a small dent in an industry built on destruction.

MI: Also by not smoking (my friend died from it)

JH: Yes. The tobacco industry is the most destructive industry there is. Nothing positive ever came from smoking

MI: Yeh! yeh! Paying to die.

JH: Exactly. Smoking never saved anyone’s life. And they have so much influence. Tobacco influences so much of American politics so my choice not to participate is a little tiny voice saying fuck you to a giant.

MI: Heh, I bet you would have said no if you were in Germany then, you know? It’s the same mindset.

JH: I would like to think I would have.

MI: Aight well, this was definitely an elucidating conversation. I like Dead To Fall a lot, I like the way you blend styles and you’re fkn heavy, it was nice.

JH: Thanks, man. It’s hard to answer these questions over the Internet.

MI: Chat is good also though, cause it renders it impersonal enough that you don’t feel threatened.

JH: Haha true. Well, I am trying to make sure we have a date over there on our next overseas tour so hopefully we can meet someday. (talking about flights and expenses and stuff) I mean a flight from like Hungary to there wouldn’t be that bad.

MI: Nooo, also Prague is real cheap.

JH: Right, if we did it at the end of a European tour. I have to say my favorite food in the world is falafel so I would die.

MI: Hahaha. Why would you die from that (except for possible digestive issues)?

JH: Out of happiness. I’d eat it for every meal.

MI: That’s why you wanna come here??? Hahah it’s all about the pita n chummus man.

JH: Hahaha. Yeah I know. One of the reasons. I just want to play everywhere. And no bands go there so I think it would be rad.

MI: We have the best crowd, you should know. We’re fkn nuts but we’re happy too.

JH: That rules. Once our new record comes out –

MI: When is that?

JH: April. We’re recording in 2 weeks.

MI: Is it another concept album?

JH: Not so much.

MI: Not that Villainy and Virtue was so much of a concept album but it definitely was, sort of. It’s good music cause it makes you think, too.

JH: That’s good. I want that. So many bands don’t have shit to say anymore. I would rather incite conversation.

MI: Well, you just had an hour and a half of it, hahah.

JH: Exactly. I’m glad. Yeah. We’re coming over, I’m counting on it.

MI: Aight, we’ll see.

JH: Word. I’m gonna go get ready for practice and try to holla at this girl.

MI: Go holla. Yalla. Yalla is like, ok then let’s go. Also like, alright move it. Also like,
whatever.

JH: Haha

MI: Like u say yalla bye.

JH: Yalla holla holla yalla.